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Liners and Shaders

Posted by darrenhighfield220@hotmail.com from IP: 81.158.73.196 on 09/15/07

Hey Guys, Ive just bought a couple of tattoo machines and was wondering the difference between a liner and a shader. I know the difference between the needles but i dont know how to set the machines differently. I have spent the past few weeks or so tattooing bloody melons and Im probabley not going to tattoo anybody at the moment but I think in order for me to progress i should really know this. I am looking for an apprenticeship but its not going very well (If you live in the Dorset area of the UK you know where i am ;)!!!! ) so i figured it was probabley a good idea to ask you guys.



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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by fluffystuff from IP: 86.137.223.190 on 09/15/07
UK

Basically,liners run faster than shaders, but there's a lot more to it than that. Prepare to be flamed by the tattoo elitists and go here.
www.eikondevice.com


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Ohsillydutchman@yahoo.com from IP: 75.18.170.186 on 09/15/07
The Hague

Whatever, ive seen far too many horrible tattoos to feel bad for people going out of their way to sabotage their own chances at succeeding at being a tattoo artist. just like ive heard the same promise from all these people promising they wont tattoo a person till their ready, than a week or so later theyre back with a picture of some horrid tattoo theyve inflicted on another human being and asking for feedback only to be completely aghast when people tell them just how wonderful theyre work really is. If youre looking for an apprenticeship man, KEEP LOOKING, continue to work on a portfolio of artwork, NOT TATTOOS, that anyone would be a damn fool not to want to apprentice, but what i can absolutely gurantee you and all the other people whove posted your same story here countless times, is that there is no shop out there thats going to do anything other than laugh their asses of at you when you walk in there with a bunch of pictures of the tattoos youve done on grapefruit or melons, or god forbid people. So please do the entire industry and art of tattooing a favor and pleaaaaaaase drop the machines until the person your training under eventually instructs you to pick them back up.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by justapr1ck from IP: 72.184.175.201 on 09/16/07
lakeland, Fl United States

im really tired of seeing stuff like this. i think that this would be a good rule to follow: if you dont know the difference of a liner and a shader, dont attempt to tattoo. if your not lisenced: dont tattoo. if you dont know how to properly sterilize your equipment: dont tattoo. see where im going with this? an apprenticeship would answer all your dumbass questions.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by darrenhighfield220@hotmail.com from IP: 81.158.73.196 on 09/16/07

Believe me im not planning on tattooing anyone at the moment. I need to learn and i really cant get an apprenticeship. There are 2 tatooists in my town and one in the next, getting an apprenticeship is not going well at all.
I only use the fruit to give myself a feel for the machines not so i can take a bunch dumbass photos of inked melons to a tattooist to flash my skills. I need to start somewhere. I just wanted to know how to set the different needles.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by justapr1ck from IP: 74.182.234.236 on 09/16/07
lakeland florida united states

honestly bro, if you have every intention on getting an apprenticeship there is no reason why you cant. before you start thinkin about tattooing, draw alot. and a lot of different things. and when you feel they are great, not good, go talk to these guys. even if they are the only ones around, they can teach you everything you need to know about tattooing. at least enough to get you to the point of being able to relocate and find better artists. as long as you dont ruin yourself, and you have artistic ability, and a strong desire to learn the right way, you will do good. but please dont ask for someone to tell you the difference between liners and shaders, to them you are a scratcher trying to figure out to hack people up. you wont get a damn thing from them. instead post a thread, asking advice for how to get an apprenticeship. there are lots of good artists who are willing to help aspiring artists(NOT SCRATCHERS) but be prepared to deal with the occasional assholes.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Fallenking - http://fkirons.com from IP: 72.153.240.80 on 09/16/07
Miami Beach

I don't see a harm in answering this question.
A liner is a machine that is set to run "round groups". There are different styles of setups to suit specific type of work and preference.
Usually this type of setup is ideal for "lining" but a liner can be the perfect setup for certain shading work.

A shader is a machine that is used to color in and layout transitions. This type of setup has many variations as well. Usually this machine runs slower than a liner.

A liner can easily be setup as shader and vice-versa.
Now ... to really understand the "why" of each setup, you need to start thinking about entering an apprenticeship unless you are willing to scar people with horrible wounds/ tattoos.

There is a reason behind the bitching. It's not just elitism like someone claimed it before.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by girlstar from IP: 74.166.233.159 on 09/24/07
fl

well, my machine is both a liner an a shader combo. when i first started i asked the same question, why do some use 2 machines or more an my mentor told me so you dont have to swtich needles on your machine right in the middle of a tattoo. you just grab your shader an you can switch back an forth if you want to . but i only have one machine an have to do some planning because of it., when im done with lining i have to stop an carfully change needles which is no easy task because you can easily cros contaminate if your not. so if you have two machines ready to go think how easy it would be to use both , be like ohhh i wanna shade a little here , then ohhh i wanna add a line here grabbin both machines for this an that . instead of hasleing with changeing out needles


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Fallen King - http://www.fkirons.com from IP: 65.10.178.105 on 09/24/07
MIami

No artist at a shop will go through the hassle of changing needles back and forth in the middle of a session.
Usually when you do a tattoo you still switch back and forth between machines.
Some artists setup up to 5 machines per tattoo.

Imagine the waste of time in stopping in the middle of the session to change needles every time you need a specific setup.

If you are taking this serious you'll realize that you'll end up with several machines in your life time.

You don't want to make your suffering customer wait because now you pretty much need to set everything up again.
This doesn't mean that is not possible but in this business time=money.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by girlstar from IP: 74.166.233.159 on 09/24/07
fl

i myself have become pretty fast at it, well due to nessesity, i have my shader needle waiting their an make sure all lining an small details are done. then i will looseing my tube dump old needle out an switch gloves, put new in an adjust an tighten. then ready to go. i keep a bag on my machine so less worry about anything touching the actual machine, an well tubes get claved anyway. i only maybe twice had to break out a new liner due to my own forgetfulness. now when we start talking about large pieces like say you do some lineing with a 3group an then you need to jump to a large mag. whoa now its tricky, now you need a mag tube also. so all this switching around gets complicated. an what if your liner only has 8 wrap coils? thats cant push no large grouping mag correctly. see how complicated it gets. but im still on small stuff so i can get away with my one machine


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Fallen King - http://www.fkirons.com from IP: 65.10.178.105 on 09/24/07
Miami

Give yourself a few years and post again.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by ken01 from IP: 71.224.18.205 on 09/24/07

a good machine with 8 wraps will push a large mag grouping.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by justapr1ck from IP: 72.184.175.201 on 09/25/07
lakeland, Fl United States

Its really common for an artist to use multiple machines. I normally have three set up, generally two size liner and one size shader. But when I was apprenticeing my boss used I think like ten of them bitches. A few different liners and a bunch of shaders.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Hooligans Tattoo from IP: 71.212.60.250 on 09/26/07
bellingham, wa

just throw in a 15 round mag in and do the whole damn thing. or.... just quit.


quitting's probably the better option.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Fallen King Irons - http://fkirons.com from IP: 65.10.191.192 on 09/27/07
Miami

ROFL


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Sideshow from IP: 67.182.145.206 on 11/25/07
ferndale,wa

Pay no attention to the hooligans guy! I have seen his work on myspace and face to face because they have come into my shop to get them fixed. It is just funny to me to see someone say buy my machine when they are a amatuer tattoo artist. Although it is stupid that you are on here asking what shader to buy!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by nostrildamus from IP: 142.162.195.177 on 11/25/07

a note: justaprick is a fraud. he has never had an apprenticeship, and knows nothing of what he speaks.

just a heads up.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Jermski from IP: 71.8.120.244 on 09/26/08
Texas

It's funny how some artists try to discourage people. I think they just feel threatened.
While there are many things to learn, its not rocket science. After learning all the technical stuff, good tattooing highly depends on the artistic talent of the individual behind the needle.
There is no harm in asking questions, its the response that can be damaging. When someone asks questions, it shows a desire to learn and do better.
If you really care about the victims of bad tattooing you should give some words of wisdom instead of destructive criticism that shows your fear of others learning the trade.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Inksane Gina from IP: 64.252.250.117 on 09/26/08
CT

lol, it's funny that your email is clonspeak@yahoo.com since you seem to talk directly from your ass. haha


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Inksane Gina from IP: 64.252.250.117 on 09/26/08
CT

Erm, I meant colonspeak@yahoo.com


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by frightwriter from IP: 74.130.97.89 on 02/22/09
USA

There sure are a lot of friggin' high and mighty's on here! Hey, at one time you clowns didn't know how to tattoo either, and had a shitload of questions too, but were either too stupid or too embarrassed to ask! And I'll bet the crack of my ass that not ALL of YOU paid for an apprenticeship before YOU started tattooing either! Honest to god, an apprenticeship is a nice thing to have under your belt...but you know what? Thousands of great tattoo artists have NEVER attended an apprenticeship...so drive on man, and good luck! Luckily, my brother is an artist of over 20 years, so I have the luxury of apprenticing under him for free. But don't be afraid to pick up a machine and "scratch" a few lines either! You'd be STUPID to pay for an apprenticeship, spend 6-9 months in "classes" only to find out that you couldn't tattoo for a living if your life depended on it! If I were an instructor, I would set up a machine, put it in a newbie's hand and see just what he/she can do, LONG BEFORE I waste their money and my time introducing them to dumping trash cans and cleaning out the monkey cage, only to find out they ain't gonna make it!
Good luck...by the way, if these clowns have time to rag on you, then they must not be tattin' a damn thing worth talking about! All the good ones are makin' the money, not bragging about how good they wish they were!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Mean Jean from IP: 67.149.136.58 on 02/26/09
warren mi

What you have to remember is that the tattoo community is underground and it will always be that way. You might get some one to throw you a bone once in a while but your chances of someone doing that are slim to none. What you have to do is ask your self the question (how bad do I want to be a tattoo artist?). And then you have to do what it takes to get yourself there, I can understand that A.It's frickin had to get an apprentiseship and B.No one will give you the answers that you are looking for. So with that being sayed, you have to put your heart into it, find the loop holes, read the fourms, get on you tube, buy a tattoo book, tattoo the shit out of YOURSELF, keep tattooing your grapefruit and learn shit the hard way. The mechanics of it are simple it's wether you are dedicated enuogh to learn or not! Don't let these guys discourage you. Cuz that's there job, to weed out the ones who's heart truly isn't in it. It's a long hard road and they are saving you alot of trouble if this isn't what you really want to do. I like many others here were in the same boat that you are in right now you just got to stick with it kid.

www.myspace.com/whiteboy52386


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by sick nino from IP: 71.239.135.198 on 03/05/09
la belle fl,usa

the truth,not to many tattoo artist want to help others become tattoo artist,there scared of the competition,but there are some that will help,above all please dont start with a lazer cut tattoo machine,or a china cheap shit.remember just cause a tattoo machine looks fancy dose'nt mean its the best machine,i dont know whats the diffrent between a liner or shader machine frame.but i know the parts are diffrent and it's tune up diffrent,a liner hits faster and harder i run my liner at 9.0 to 9.5 on the power supply,and stretch the skin,but then agin it depends on what part of the body the skin be like?on shading i run the machine slower like at 8.0 to 8.3 or 8.5 on the power supply.im not sayin this is the right way to do it or this is how everyone should do it,this is what works for me.but where i know im right at is to run your liner fast,and your shader slower


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by inkjunkeez22@yahoo.com from IP: 68.48.242.189 on 03/21/09
baltimore md

dont mind all the guys on here talking about i not telling u go learn the real way..when half of them are fakes there self i dont down shop people nor do i down alllll home tattooers i seen home tattoos 10 times better the shop work.. shops only means u work in a building that for tattoo only when u leave that place u dont lose your skill haha i telling you people cry like kidz anymore...yes there is people that tattoo at home that do bad work and are not clean but it is the dumm a@# people that get it u have eyes if it dont look right LEAVE......shader/liner shader front spring is longer hangs over the armature bar more a liners front spring is shorter run shader with less voltage the gap between the contact screw and the front spring should be the thickness of a dime for a liner and a nickel for a shader..i will try to ancer any questions from any one on here hit me up on aol aim dktattooing


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by bizarre ink from IP: 86.156.54.70 on 03/31/09
united kingdom

HI DUDES. JUST SO WE ARE CLEAR I HAVE BEEN TATTOOING FOR ALONG TIME BUT RECENTLY DID A HAND TATTOO ON THE SIDE OF THE PALM BELOW THE LITTLE FINGER AND ONCE HEALED IT WAS A LIGHT GREY SHADE INSTEAD OF BLACK ?? SO I DID THE TATTOO AGAIN AND ONCE AGAIN SOME PARTS OF THE DESIGN WAS LIGHT GREY WHILST OTHER PARTS WERE A NICE BLACK. THE CLIENT ADMITTED TO HAVING HER HANDS IN WASHING UP WATER 2 DAYS AFTER THE TATTOO !!! I GUESSED THIS WAS THE PROBLEM !! CAN ANY FELLOW ARTIST HELP ME OUT THIS INCASE MY DIAGNOSIS IS INCORRECT.
THANKS GUYS


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by macca3.16@hotmail.com from IP: 123.208.168.183 on 07/26/09
Victoria, Australia

Its all fine to say, Go and get an aprienteceship! But every Tattooist I've spoken to here in Australia says there isn't suck a thing here. So Who's going to teach me? apart from MYSELF at HOME!. where I bet it is a lot cleaner than a lot of shops out there. So to all thoese saying "Dont pick up a machine untill your teacher tells you to!" I'm my own teacher, coz nobody else is going to show me! so ease up on thoese who really do want to get into this industry for the right reasons!!!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by T.D. 09 from IP: 69.145.62.101 on 07/27/09

This is for you macca. Now im not going to get into the whole apprenticeship thing with you. Seems you already have your mind made up on the road your going to take. But you say to ease up on the people who are trying to get into the industry for the right reasons. So im curious to what your reasons are? I hear so many people say the same thing over and over again with really no explanation on to what they mean so please what are your reasons?


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by maltybob from IP: 82.31.197.198 on 07/30/09
east anglia

most shaders are set about 1.95 mm on the armature bar to the coil
most liners are set about 1.25mm
but a lot depends on the needles your using and colour saturation that you want
try experimenting on pigskin rather than fruit
it only lasts about a day then it stinks its what i use for new ideas and concepts


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by 78's from IP: 75.90.235.67 on 07/30/09
yo mama

SHIT git yoz a gitar strang, and some ink frum da ink pen, mix in a drop of pig shit to make it stick, and yall be set. dats how we be doin it down in nawlins.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by twelvedrunkenmonkeyz@hotmail.com from IP: 98.192.141.47 on 09/10/09
Dz Nutz, Yo Chin, China

Hey hey, I just wanted to say, I start an apprenticeship in Febuary. I've spent alot of time in the tattoo shops in my town, which is alot for such a small place. However most of the artist here and shops are pretty high on themselves. But I went to the shop that I have gotten work at and talked to the owner, and he told me he'd do it for free, and he's real old school.
I asked him what I should do in the meantime so I can get a head start on this, and he told me, practice, start simple, do a perfect circle and straight smooth lines, do them with smaller needles because those will show alot of imperfections. He told me use WHOLE Pig ears to practice on, as its just like human skin.
I've also read that Garver from Miami ink did this.
As for how to set up a liner and shader the dime/nickel trick is what I've heard and read. Run the liner at 6.5v and you can push the shader up to 8-9v region...that is on a 10 COIL machine though.
If you are running a 12 Coil you can push it harder and longer but shouldn't have to...10 coil is pretty much for you basic stuff.
Anyways I'm no pro and I've only been tattooing for about a month. But I've been practicing for about a year and doin' research and pickin' up on notes sense I was 16 and got my first tattoo (oh the folly of youth).
But I've got so many damn pig's ears tattooed now I could probably leather them and make a cool leather jacket from them...lol now that's hardcore.
But anyways keep up the practice and do what you do, remember its an art, everyones feel and taste will be different. But alot of people are right an apprenticeship is the way to go.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by T.D. 09 from IP: 69.145.62.101 on 09/11/09

Good job!!!! You probably just gave a thousand scratchers a full blown chubby and yet still can't read that there is no technical talk being that this is a public forum. Does your mentor mind that all the information he is teaching you is going around public forums to help teach anyone? Or is your mentor a shinny little disc also known as a DVD??? Doing an apprenticeship is not just about learning how to tattoo. Its about gaining respect for the art. But im guessing your mentor missed that part.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Rjskeets from IP: 74.105.129.173 on 10/06/09
nj

sum of u dudes are strait up ridiculous......not every aspiring artists can get an apprenticeship especially with assholes charging for them are have you run around like a monkey....This shit aint rocket science...and many very successful and even some of the best artists out there are self taught although it is highly ill advised but it is sumtimes the only viable option....all aspiring tattoo artists should most definitely continue seeking an apprenticeship albeit a reputable artists whos work you admire....There are alot of ink slingers out there but scratchers are not ARTISTS. So some of you no talent hacks keep on discouraging these kids who just may be full of talent and creativity needed for this industry and to be honest i'd trade a hundred of you cocky talentless asshole for just one genuine kid who dosent know the diffrence between a liner and a shader....You guyz are really a disgrace jus like those chargin 20 grand for an apprenticeship, bein to special to answer a fuckin question.....Tattooing skillz are acquired thru expierience no one in this industry was satisfied with their first tattoo and if u were you need to give your machine to the kid.......Rule of life dont be an asshole ......why so many people have a hard time with that i will never understand.. RJS


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by rob from IP: 68.32.80.9 on 10/07/09
Lake Orion, Michigan, USA.

Hay Uk guy, You just keep learning,take the first comment, go to the web site He/she suggested and screw all these a-holes that can't answer your question so they insult you. If they cared about the industry and the people that much they would give you advice.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by HardkoreInk from IP: 70.184.119.243 on 10/08/09
Arizona

To all who still remember we the artist learned from tattoo artist who opened a shop who learned in the dirtiest place there is Prison! What ever ever happen to everyone helping a starving artist. Oh I know you shop artist today think your great and most of you came right in here from your home too. Alot of artist in shops wont help apprentice now because there art work scares them cause they are so great. These scratchers ive seen do some really sick stuff and I would take them in my shop in second and fire everyone else. Ive seen alot of dirty shops out there but some of you artist can learn from these so called scratchers. Most of them dont want to work at the shop just because the rent of a chair is to damn much. Some scratchers give you artist business by you having to fix what they F*@ked up. So thanks to all you scratchers out there and Keep on the ink its a beautiful thing.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by eat shit from IP: 72.192.136.2 on 10/11/09
us

all you guys are a bunch of fucks. this dude is trying to learn how to tattoo. i guess all you motherfuckers were born with a gun in your hand. i dont think so you bitches had to learn some where. if you dont like questions like this then dont fucking subscribe to the post;. i would love to meet you hipocritical bitches i would bring you down a few notches and remind you where you all came from u arent anything special. most of ytou fucks prolly picked your ink straight out of a flash art book and it doesnt meen anything to you. you just think it looks cool.or you think it makes you look hard cause your a little pussy. ink doesnt make you hard life does, and then you get ink to tell the story, faggots. anyways bro fuck this fruit shit go to the butcher and get some pig skin, its cheap, and ts as close as you will get to human skin. the whole liner shader bull shit i use one gun and its a home made gun it works better than any other gun ive ever used. i built the first modle of the gun in iraq after i saw my get his head blown off we made the gun and tated his name on us anyways these fucks are a bunch of lames. you jus got to get a feel for it you can run your shader slower but its really prefrance of the user.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by WTF! from IP: 24.23.234.33 on 11/02/09
hayward

Seriously, WTF! lol! this shit is too funny y'all sound like a bunch of wine eeee bitches and I'm a woman ugh for real. The real facts pretty simple back in the day when you used to run a needle right through a fucken pen and you had that little cheap ass power pack uh there was no control of depth or speed and you had one needle that's it and well that was it ..now the shit is sooooo complex...like so many others said on here it's not rocket science and well we see how rocket science works out too ....I totally agree if someone has a question please dont be a hater it's pathetic. I have been painting as a fine artist and a damn good artist forever tatted back when tattoo were simple and well very dangerous so i'm glad to see things have improved but apprenticeship it really boils down to how serious you are is it a love a passion or a love for what one might think is quick money ....I say suck it ....with both hands....if you have nothing good to say shut it up! ....I have an apprenticeship and I still have tons of questions and I'm not paying NO ONE to learn shit.......that's how good I see my shit if you don't want to help me while I run around helping you kiss my ass......


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by x51xanomiax50x@aol.com from IP: 66.168.115.81 on 11/11/09

most every one on these forums are duetch bags... what, u dont remeber when u started tattooing? or u dont remeber when u got your first aprenticship?,, rather than hating on every one that wants to start tattooing why dont u give them some input.. maybe they will listen and not give shitty ass tattoos till there ready and have learned what they needed to.... just cuz u guys can tattoo already doesnt mean other people cant.... just saying


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by blake from IP: 68.81.230.205 on 11/12/09
philly

best way to learn about machines is to take 'em apart and rebuild them. when your starting out and don't understand machines buy two of any machine you purchase during your first couple years tattooing. leave one alone take the other apart, study it and rebuild it to run the same with new parts. you will learn so much. sit with you mentor and work this shit out. then you can rebuild and tune them to be different and you'll end up with different machines for different needles/effects. no auto mechanic is confused about how a car works, how can you call yourself a tattooer if you don't know how your machines work.

it's all about priorities, stop being so cheap. all you guys out there trying to save your money for weed, beer and xbox games need to invest more time and money into yourselves, your work, your tools and overall professionalism. treat your craft seriously....

-blake


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by pirronefrank@yahoo.com from IP: 68.39.218.129 on 11/12/09

If you're using one machine to do both, one aspect of your tattoo will be horrible. Any one that uses one machine for both, shouldn't be tattooing. Go get an apprenticeship. Changing out the needle is the least thing you need to worry about. The machine gap, throw, spring is different.

It's very hard to get the correct shading effect with a machine that's set to put in solid lines. That's even if your line work is solid, which I highly doubt is straight let alone solid. You risk cross contamination using only one machine.

No one is hating on anyone. We're just tired of seeing people get hacked up by kitchen magicians.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by lolopop_15@hotmail.com from IP: 173.179.61.106 on 02/11/10

haaa ! 'don't ask if you are a apprentice na nananana! YES! there is people that want to learn and the only thing that you can advice is: if you don't know the difference, fuck of duude' yaah thanks .there is country that don't need laws and scholarships. so NOOO there's no one to teach us but we want to learn.So beside telling us to screw of, try to be more helpfull


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Tiger from IP: 99.170.182.224 on 02/19/10
Reno, NV

I have to say, a bunch of you guys are serious assholes, and the exact reason why some may not WANT to go out and get an apprenticeship, but rather learn on their own!

I've been doing art since I was a kid. I'm generally pretty good. I tried to get into tattooing about 15 years ago, and took my portfolio around town trying to get an apprenticeship. Nobody even looked at my portfolio, they just turned me away. Their reason? "How are you gonna do tattoos when you don't have any of your own?" Seriously.

Now I'm 35 years old, and don't feel like being some arrogant assholes bitch-boy for the next couple of years. And that's how most "artists" treat their apprentices. So, I just said "FUCK IT", dropped a few bills on some basic gear, started by doing a small piece on myself (which, as expected, turned out like crap, but it was for the sake of education), and have done six tats so far. And frankly, all of the pieces I've done are of better quality than some of the work I've seen from some so-called "professionals". I'm not saying my work is fantastic, and the quality does vary from piece to piece, and depending on how awkward the location, but I can honestly say that I haven't done a single "bad" piece. Nothing that anybody has expressed any regret over, anyway. Of course, yes, there are many pieces that blow my work out of the water, but there's also a lot of crap out there.

You jerks need to get off your high horses and just try answering a fucking question every now and then. I'll be honest, I didn't know there was a difference between the speed of a liner or a shader. It makes sense, now that I read it, but I really had no way to know.

Thanks for being shining examples of "folk in the industry."


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Stop waisning your time and ours.

Posted by Terry Ribera from IP: 74.68.98.179 on 02/19/10
San Diego, CA, USA

Learn to draw. Find an apprenticeship. There is way to much to know than what somebody could read over the internet. It is a waste of time, it's not a matter of being an a snob, it's just common sense. It took me many years to learn to tattoo and even more to learn how to tune a machine and that came with a great understanding of art before I even dreamed of tattooing. Even after I had and apprenticeship I still had just as many questions, but without one I can't even imagine how difficult and horrible it would have been. To many people are on here trying to run before they can walk. The sign says "You need to be at least this tall to get on the ride." It's as simple as that, apprenticeship=answers. No apprenticeship=no answers. IF YOU CAN"T FIND ONE YOU ARE EITHER NOT READY BECAUSE YOU BEHAVE LIKE AN ASSHOLE, CAN'T DRAW (USUALLY THE CASE) OR YOU DON'T WANT IT BAD ENOUGH!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Tiger from IP: 99.170.182.224 on 02/19/10
Reno, NV

I understand the value of formal training. At this stage in my life, however, I'm not willing to spend any more time being treated like garbage, just so that someone else can feel better about themselves. I've been shit on or treated like I was worthless for the majority of my life. I'm done.

And for the record, it IS being a snob when you turn away a possible apprentice on the grounds that they don't have any tattoos. As I said, they didn't even LOOK at my portfolio. They asked me if I had any ink, and when I said no, they turned me away. Tell me that isn't being "elitist".

For me to mark my body permanently, each piece has to mean something. I don't want to look like a tattoo parlor threw up on me. I have only three tats: A flash-style Spider-Man logo on my left bicep (I've been a Spidey fan since before I can remember) which I plan to have elaborated on, a white tiger with kanji which reads "spirit of the tiger" on my right pectoral (I was born Year of the Tiger, and it's one of my nicknames), and some self-inflicted garbage for the sake of education on my right thigh (where it's easy to conceal, lol). ALL of those pieces mean something to me, even the garbage, which represents education. I don't need a slew of skulls, crosses, hearts, daggers, demons, naked women, or any other miscellaneous images to show that I like tattoos. I LOVE tattoos! I want more! But I'm VERY particular, and ink is expensive.

I've also always had this attitude that goes a little something like this: Somebody was first, which means that somebody learned by doing. It may take longer, but sometimes you just don't have the time or means to go to someone and spend hours upon days upon weeks upon months upon YEARS to be treated like crap, and not getting paid for it. That's why colleges offer online classes. People have busy lives. I have children and responsibilities. The internet is my tool, and I learn as much as I can via its utilization.

And then there's this: If some dumb schlub is willing to let an untrained artist, such as myself, use their flesh as an experimental canvas, that's their deal. I make sure everything is sanitary, use only fresh, sterilized needles, and follow any health tips that I can find. Nobody I ink is at risk of getting ill from my art. I'm constantly scouring the web for any info I can find in order to improve my technique. Thus far, I'm 6 for 6 on the satisfaction scale, so I must be doing something right. I was a natural with art, maybe I'm a natural with tats, too. ;)


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Tiger from IP: 99.170.182.224 on 02/19/10
Reno, NV

I understand the value of formal training. At this stage in my life, however, I'm not willing to spend any more time being treated like garbage, just so that someone else can feel better about themselves. I've been shit on or treated like I was worthless for the majority of my life. I'm done.

And for the record, it IS being a snob when you turn away a possible apprentice on the grounds that they don't have any tattoos. As I said, they didn't even LOOK at my portfolio. They asked me if I had any ink, and when I said no, they turned me away. Tell me that isn't being "elitist".

For me to mark my body permanently, each piece has to mean something. I don't want to look like a tattoo parlor threw up on me. I have only three tats: A flash-style Spider-Man logo on my left bicep (I've been a Spidey fan since before I can remember) which I plan to have elaborated on, a white tiger with kanji which reads "spirit of the tiger" on my right pectoral (I was born Year of the Tiger, and it's one of my nicknames), and some self-inflicted garbage for the sake of education on my right thigh (where it's easy to conceal, lol). ALL of those pieces mean something to me, even the garbage, which represents education. I don't need a slew of skulls, crosses, hearts, daggers, demons, naked women, or any other miscellaneous images to show that I like tattoos. I LOVE tattoos! I want more! But I'm VERY particular, and ink is expensive.

I've also always had this attitude that goes a little something like this: Somebody was first, which means that somebody learned by doing. It may take longer, but sometimes you just don't have the time or means to go to someone and spend hours upon days upon weeks upon months upon YEARS to be treated like crap, and not getting paid for it. That's why colleges offer online classes. People have busy lives. I have children and responsibilities. The internet is my tool, and I learn as much as I can via its utilization.

And then there's this: If some dumb schlub is willing to let an untrained artist, such as myself, use their flesh as an experimental canvas, that's their deal. I make sure everything is sanitary, use only fresh, sterilized needles, and follow any health tips that I can find. Nobody I ink is at risk of getting ill from my art. I'm constantly scouring the web for any info I can find in order to improve my technique. Thus far, I'm 6 for 6 on the satisfaction scale, so I must be doing something right. I was a natural with art, maybe I'm a natural with tats, too. ;)


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Big Mama from IP: 68.57.182.134 on 02/20/10
va

Hey there, Every tattoo artist needs the tattoo machine tuning kit, which every artist has, My ol man sells them in his tattoo supply shop for only .25 cents! This is a great deal for a machine tuning kit. What ya think boys? Is that too much?


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Terry Ribera from IP: 74.68.98.179 on 02/20/10
San Diego, CA, USA

I just told you everything you'll ever need to know and your still to stubbornt to get it. The answer is always gioing to be an apprenticeship. If you can't find one your either not looking hard enough or you don't draw well enough, or you are an asshole. It's that simple, figure out what's wrong with the eqaution and fix it. This whole I am tired of being treated like shit bussiness, grow up and get over it. Everybody has a sad story and most are worse than yours. Grow a set of nuts and move to where ever you need to get an apprenticeship, I DID! Suffer a bit, struggl, take crappy jobs that's how it works. It didn't matter that I could draw circles around most of the other dumbies wanting to tattoo, although it sure let me in the door. Learning to shut your mouth and open your ears is the first lesson you'll ever need to know. It's ike you want people just to hand you answers. That's not how the world works, you have to earn it. Talent isn't enough and desire isn't enough, anyone worth a shit tattooing todoay has both, desire and talent. Moste people today wanting to tattoo only have one or none. Just because you see a bunch of crappy people tattooing today doesn't mean we need another. There is very little money in it for amature hour highschool art class loosers. You have to be a lot better than to make it tattooing and a whole hell of a lot more repsectfull. Even if I told you what the difference was between liner or shader it wouldn't make a difference. It's like having a radio with batteries, no matter what even if you know what radio is for you'll never be able to tune in, get it???? It's not like there is some one word answer. It's like asking a Lawer how do they win cases... Law School perhaps... There is so much more to what makes a liner run than simple frame geometry and coil size. A whole hell of a lot more, when I said it took me a few years I mean it. If it was something that could be answered in simple paragraph don't you think everybody would be tattooing? Actually everybody is, and that's the problem. Now we have all the idiots with no talent, no drive, no ambition, no social skills, no respect tattooing, because they think they can learn on the internet.


It's rediculous.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by gabe from IP: 24.151.141.46 on 02/20/10
TattooNOW Offices @ Off the Map Tattoo

Cheers Terry, your work speaks for itself, and if people take advice from anyone, your a good one.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Big Mama from IP: 68.57.182.134 on 02/21/10
Va

Hey Terry, How Can I get a peek at your work? From What Gabe said its good. I would love to swap pics with ya. Or figure out how to post mine on here. Haven't had a chance long enough to play around on here to figure out how to post it or if you know Gabe give a lady a hand in figuring out how to post art.

BTW we are having a sale on Machine tuning kits all next week @ .20 cents Ea. Hahaha


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by gabe from IP: 24.151.141.46 on 02/21/10
TattooNOW offices @ Off the Map Tattoo

Man, I just re-read through all of the whining and excuses. And that what they are, pathetic whining from impatient people who feel they deserve something.

Strait up, this is an anonymous forum, NOT the place to find quality information. If you want to learn to tattoo, get work done by the very best and take their advice. Thats right, get tattooed... if you want to practice the art, then generally the first step is to enjoy it. Cause I tell you, it aint worth the bullshit if you dont love it...

Terry just posted a bunch of work here and will soon be updating his TattooNOW portfolio.

God, all the excuses, no one is afraid of more competition, its your artwork and attitudes that suck! Many of the artists involved with this site actively participate in the convention that is all about learning, the Paradise Tattoo Gatheirng so your thoughts about us not wanting to help people are so far off base its laughable. We spend a lot of time educating. We do it responsibly. If your artwork and attitude suck, then good luck fucking up your friends skins, we will be there for the coverup.

Good luck everyone, listen to Terry.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by gabe from IP: 24.151.141.46 on 02/21/10
TattooNOW offices @ Off the Map Tattoo

Oh, and terry, if you read this, your more than welcome up at TattooNOW's studio, Off the Map Tattoo, for a few days if you want. Kinda like the opposite of NYC or LA, but real fun and relaxing!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by TattooNOW gabe from IP: 141.154.190.200 on 02/21/10
TattooNOW offices @ Off the Map Tattoo

Oh, and there is a sticky thread at the top that explains how to post if you arent a tattoonow artist member!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Big Mama from IP: 68.57.182.134 on 02/21/10
Va

Terry Is the SHIT!! Great Work!! Everyone has alot to learn from Terry so take his words and work to heart. Terry, you would be welcome to come to My studio in VA for a few days any time. Hell It would do our business some good to have an artist like yourself grace our place and even the whole city with your artwork. Spread it like a virus! You have the power to make ugly people beautiful!!! Hahaha. Ok ok enough ass kissing, but your work deserves it!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Tat2Rob from IP: 98.201.26.35 on 03/18/10
Houston Texas

All you guys talking about Cross Contamination.... Riiight. I'm a registered nurse and a tattoo artist, amongst other things. You guys that say that you need six machines set up and specially tuned blah blah blah are so full of shit it makes me sick. You can get by with one machine without cross contaminating. take a simple infectious disease course at your local community college for a couple hundred bucks and you can learn everything you need to know about aseptic technique. The fact is that Apprenticeships are bull shit. I did one for 8 months, and during that time I had to open the shop, and close the shop... first one there, last one out. And you wanna know what I did? Made stencils, and doodled. I wasn't allowed to tattoo, and frankly they would rarely even let me watch. I went off on the guys and left one day and started out on Practice skins. Then re-lined a tattoo I already had on my chest. Then just kept doing pig skins that I bought from a local butcher. -- My point is, all you fucks who say "get an apprenticeship, or you're not dedicated enough" are so full of shit. Its ass holes like you that get apprentices and still don't answer their questions... and its probably because you CAN"T FUCKING ANSWER THEM. Because there really isn't one answer. I know artists that have tattooed for 25 years that use a "liner" machine for shading. It comes down to user preference and how heavy your hand it, the kinds of inks you use, and how quickly you move your hand when tattooing. Sure you want to run your shader at a different speed, but will it truly make or break your tattoo if your artistic ability is there? Nope. I dont think so. So to the original poster, just keep practicing. mess around with the contact screw and volts on the power supply. try different rubber bands on the machine. Try different needles, different kinds of shading. Just keep messing around. that is how you learn. Just be smart, be safe and focus on the art. The end result is something both you and your client needs to be proud of. Best of Luck to you.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Inksane Gina from IP: 69.0.13.171 on 03/19/10
CT

Your advice is "keep messing around". That's just great!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Tat2Rob from IP: 98.201.26.35 on 03/21/10
Houston Texas

yes, exactly. Messing around as in: practicing on fake skin, fruit, pig hide, etc. Would you rather he practice on people? No, so yes, keep messing around. Start with straight lines, then do circles. The hardest part is getting used to the tattoo machine's weight and vibration. Try different grips and positioning the machine differently in your hand until you can follow a line perfectly. And when you start doing actual designs, keep them simple. Work on filling in well. Work on shading. Separate the different parts of the art form one by one. Also, I would suggest taking the machine apart and putting it back together again. This will help you understand how and why they work. Oh and just a tip, DON'T cheap out on Inks, needles or machines. The crap they sell on ebay from China will leave you frustrated. Invest the money to get good materials. I use intenze, but Perma-Pro and Dynamic are good too. I use Monster Point and joker needles and the machines I bought from a local artist for $200. And the inks were around $200 for 25 colors in 1oz bottles. So shop around, stay away from ebay, and keep it up.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Big Mama from IP: 68.57.182.134 on 03/23/10
Va

We sell tattoo tuning tools at our supply shop for $5! Its a dime,nickle, and allen wrench. LOL. Get an apprenticeship and you will learn the difference when your teacher feels its time to. Usually after taking out the garbage mopping the floor, and spending countless hours with the autoclave. Those are the first questions you should be asking as they are the most important in our line of work. This I assure if you do find someone to take you on, and everyone will tell you that has been thru it, cleanliness and sterilization is lesson #1. Liners and Shaders are about step 5 or 6 in the process.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by just some random guy from IP: 98.14.9.121 on 05/08/10
east elmhurst

Hey everyone,

I only have 5 tattoos on me one on left and right side of neck a tribal lion thats been done 3 times cause the color just didnt want to grab 2 artist first original and 2nd just to shade in again(about the size of your hand)and my other tattoo is chinese symbol for king(wife got queen) im a Leo so thats why I got it and it was a cover up of a dare made to me many years ago by an artist at silhouettes in sw miami fl(he was one of the coolest ppl i knew at the time)the other 2 are on my legs one on left leg other on right(picked out of a book:.( I wish i knew then what i know now and recently a tribal sea turtle on my right forearm.
My most recent experience sparked a long forgotten interest for this.


Why I feel you should be tatted yourself b4 trying to go and tat someone...I think you need to know the feeling of a needle on your skin the ink that tingling feeling when your over soft hard skin or even close to the bone...Can you hack it?Do you really want it that bad just for a tattoo...Hell yeah I think thats a liitle itty bitty peice of passion for ya...(need to know what your customer feels...somewhat)

Do you need to be the best F'n artist in the world?My opinion no,but atleast know how to connect the dots and draw in side the lines lol you can always get or pay for someone to sketch


If your an artist try and help dont hate..I know there are idiots out their ,but its just cause they are un educated and shunning them away dont make the industry any better or make you a better artist theirs always someone better, would'nt you wanna learn from them?
...


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by gibbsa1@hotmail.com from IP: 71.7.172.193 on 05/25/10
Canada

Hey I\ve been hanging around tattoo shops since I was 9 and have just recently started to tattoo at the age of 21.
It's NOT an easy industry to get into. And yeah there are a lot of PROFESSIONAL tattooists who don't want you to start right off buying your self a tattoo machine and going to town. Not because they're afraid you'll be competition, but because of the MANY diseases, infections you may catch (or unintentionally infect someone else) and mistakes you can and will make. I drew for MANY years before I dared to get my machine. Took a few first aid/ seminars on contaminates blood born pathogens, how to properly clean and sanitize (it's not all bleach and plastic wrap)
There were and still are lots of PROFESSIONAL tattooists who put me down and discourage me, but a few who are willing to give a few pointers here and there.
Go to any and all shops you can with DRAWINGS. I'd even troll around the tattoo conventions. No one will be impressed with tattoos you've done. So stick with your drawings (Better off taking a toy car you made to a mechanic and expecting them to take you on as a mechanic....) they're going to be impressed with designs you've done and your technique in shading and color blending. Bring in a binder full of that and you'll have better luck.
They refuse you, keep comming back. Everyone and their dog is trying to get into this thinking it's easy money. The pros have no time or money to waste with every clown who walk in their door with a few nice pictures.
After sever months or more of inconsistency, maybe you'll prove you're really in this heart and soul.

Good luck from Canada!!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by stoopid_disco@hotmail.com from IP: 124.181.3.186 on 05/29/10
Melbourne

Its true that people should at least know the differene between a liner and a shader before tattooing people but Tattoo artist of all people should now how difficult it can be to get a tattoo apprenticeship, ive been looking for two years and still havnt had luck and i have done several good tattoos in the last few months since i started practicing.
It's easy for "professionals" to sit back and say people shouldnt practice but if you dont give people a chance to learn something that they are passionate about of course they are eventually going to practice themselves.
The fact is that no matter how good your work is most of the time getting an apprenticeship is lucky, most tattoo artist are assholes who are just a waste of time, but dont give up looking for an apprenticeship eventually everyone should find someone who will give them time of day,
dont tattoo anyone if you dont feel confident but dont listen to these retards and not tattoo for 5 years until you finally find an apprenticeship


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by bigdggo from IP: 67.171.75.52 on 07/13/10
pgh

fuck all you and your dumb ass answers. what u dont know the diffrence or you want to be a asshole. ima find out myself by learning myself i got drawlings skills so ill tattoo myself an if i fuck up its my skin. i just dont understand if you all know so much why give your bullshit answers like its something thats against the law fuck yall


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by #2 Scratcher from IP: 24.24.66.181 on 07/16/10
Rochester,NY,USA

*This is a reply to Tat2Rob.*

I hear ya man. That is pretty much what I do all day. I know more about tuning a machine then anyone in the shop. My art is right up there with my "master". The only difference is, he has 15yrs of tattooing under his belt. But he does help me with some techniques and things.

Honestly, being apprenticed doesn't help shit. I mean honestly, you can learn to scrub tubes, ultrasonic, and run an autoclave by clicking the "search" button on Google.

I have learned most of what I know by doing it myself. I have an uncle that owns a butcher shop, so rabbit ears/pig skins were easy to come by.

I guess what I can say to anyone who wishes to be apprenticed and not waste their time learning things they can find out about on the internet is...

Search some local shops, find an artist that fits your style and is not too big headed. Ask them how many apprentices have they taught. Ask names, then go ask the people he apprenticed if it was worth it. It may seem like a "dick" move, but this is your time and your money. Get what you pay for. Also, see who the artist was apprenticed by, and ask him if it was worth it. Then go ask the guy who apprenticed that artist if he would be interested.

What I am getting at is, just because he is a good artist, doesn't make him a great teacher. Hence why Micheal Jordon doesn't coach.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by DudetheGuy from IP: 192.138.80.211 on 07/27/10
Honolulu, Hi

I'm not trying to be repetitive here or anything, certainly not trying to bag on anyone on this thread... (Although some of you admittedly are really fuckin stellar at being mental midgets.) But (and please correct me if I'm wrong) what I'm seeing is a tattoo forum, that has someone asking a question about tattoos, and how to do something to make his shit better- scratcher or not.. and a bunch of cheesedick motherfuckers ON A TATTOO FORUM, telling this motherfucker that he shouldnt be asking TATTOO QUESTIONS..... on a TATTOO FORUM! Now again I'm not trying to state the fuckin obvious, but what the fuck do you high and mighty motherfuckers think people are gonna do here? Ask you how to fuckin grill up a decent steak? Some of yall need to take your fuckin heads out a yer high and mighty asses and take a look at what the fuck your doing cause I read this whole fuckin forum and Im startin to think a huge percentage of yall "artists" got ya heads so far up your shitter you aint seen the light of day in the last decade of your "apprenticeship" which probably consisted alot of taking out my motherfuckin garbage and you paying me to let you do it. Shut the fuck up and answer the questions, if you just on here to troll new players then go eat a fuckin bullet cause I dont want you in my industry.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Betterthanyou from IP: 99.93.71.184 on 08/12/10

It's funny because no one gave him a technical answer to his question.

My favorite part is a majority of these people just troll around on tattoo forums rather than giving someone helpful advice. I hope the people you flame chew the fuck up outta another person because they didn't get advice rather than getting advice and maybe doing a halfway decent tattoo.

God forbid you guys have some kind of competition.

Rather than using tattoos to express art, everyone uses it to make $$$. Maybe you wouldn't have to worry about competitors so much if your artistic skill wasn't limited to Cherry Creek.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by death from IP: 71.115.43.217 on 08/19/10
grandmas house

quit fuckin knockin this guy. i was in in his shoes before too. theres nothing wrong with learning your self. JUST MAKE SHURE TO USE DISPOSABLE NEEDLES/TUBES!!!, keep your shit clean. if you dont have any common sence or cant draw worth a shit dont try


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Corn from IP: 99.192.81.202 on 10/07/10
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Ok I get the apprenticeship and the fact that your probably going to be sitting around for awhile sweeping floors and doing customer service until you can even touch a machine. If you cant draw on paper you certainly cant tattoo human skin. Not to be full of myself but I am a fabulous artist, have been told and really i dont need to be have been drawing for 20 years +. Dragons, people, animals and just wierd designs. When I look at my work I know its fantastic. The finished product anyway. I dont draw something right the first time no one ever does rarely. You gotta draw your ass off all the time.I bought a kit with 6 guns in it and a bunch of other stuff and figured out how to setup the guns the needles whats a shader and liner although after talking to some it doesnt matter really there is no shader gun or liner gun its how the gun is setup usually liners run faster from what Im told. I really dont want to apprentice, all of the artists I met told me my artwork is astounding and that I should start. So do you have any advice for a freelancer? Thanks!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by erlich from IP: 69.171.160.91 on 10/07/10
hells kitchen

get a apprenticeship this is not like drawing on paper! this is a totally different median. and learn the proper names for your equipment. there not GUNS! they are Machines.also need to learn proper BBP,CPR,ECT.you could be a great artist in paper and such but the human skin is a living breathing organisim and with such you have a variety of changes along with it.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Skin Deep Body Art and Piercing from IP: 75.89.213.250 on 11/17/10

I also dont feel it would be wrong to answere this question in part. First there really isnt a combo machine. A good quality handmade machine will be very specific to the task either liner or shader. The factors that seperate the two machines are bar weight, spring thickness, length and rear spring adjustment. For a liner for istance would use a lighter bar with a thicker front spring for a faster operating speed as a shader would use a heavier bar and a lighter front spring to drive the bigger grouping of needle for the work at hand. The next factor is the air gap, a liner has a smaller contact gap vs. a shader that has a larger gap for a slower operating speed. The tuning of the machines is a different factor. it is a balance between speed and a smooth operation of a machine. You can get a power supply that will give you hrtz and duty cycle. A shader should run about 80hrtz and a liner at 50% duty cycle but the feel of the machine by sound and feel will be the best tuner. I will use my thimb nail held against the bar while the machine is operation to tell me when it is tuned for use. This requires alot of experience and can only be learned through a good appreticeship. The last thing you want as a scratcher is to scar a client which is very easy to do. My suggestion is to throw the machine you have away and buy one handmade liner and one handmade shader machine.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by janddstattoos@yahoo.com from IP: 97.96.185.106 on 01/07/11

Drawing on paper don't mean anything i cant draw well at all my mind is to many places for ideas. I have no problems with tuning a machine and putting ink in the skin. Have a lot of friends that can draw but are afraid of using a tattoo machine. If you have the desire to learn learn. if your not good at drawing sit and practice tracing get your self use to the motions. Dont let your head get to big you can always learn more


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by rudeboy from IP: 85.144.206.43 on 02/03/11
amsterdam holland

if somebody ask something about liners or shaders .why dont give a normal answer ?
to big ego?????
why not help..


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by TattoosInSac from IP: 71.142.225.121 on 03/17/11
Sacramento

See this is why I do not work in shops... Other artists are assholes! And they wonder why mobile artists are getting more popular.. I see your question has been answered! Cool.. to the other artists on here that couldn't answer a simple question! Your just lame, grouchy, and the reason thousands don't like going to shops.. Thanks :)


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by vxf1nalspyd3rxv from IP: 68.111.132.45 on 05/25/11
california

I agree you people should be a little more supportive but it's understandable for people to stand up for the art, on the other hand the only true reason for an apprenticeship is for some dumb-ass can be the shops bitch, pay like seven grand to do free tatttoos, while the "teacher" collects the money for the work you did while your skills will be only the same as theirs. What you should do is keep practicing and before you even think about touching someone with the machine do a tat on your self preferably on your leg in case it's crappy. There are a lot of self taught tattoo artists, maybe these guys should pick up a book or two and look at a couple of tat mags there was a guy who was in a car accident and his vision was impaired he seen in all kinds mixed shapes dimensions and colors and became a great tattoo artist google that turds. You can practice on fake skin or fruit all you want but until you touch a person that's when you really start to learn. The difference between a shader and a liner is first: a liner has spacing from the arm push it down a liner should have the thickness of a dime between the screw and thespring, on a shader it should be a nickle, second: it is the power you put itno it a shader should run quieter and slower when a liner should run faster and louder. Keep practicing that doesn't mean tat your self or anyone tomorrow but doing it on yourself will help you understand how the person on the other side of the barrel will feel while you tattoo them also with shading when covering a larger area use round shader needles instead of magnums or flats. hope this helps if you have any more questions I'll be sure to help hit me at my email debradtke@gmail.com


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by bobcat from IP: 24.178.115.33 on 05/26/11
USA

darren u realy gota appreciate this info a strate up answer from vxflnalspyd3xrv and so do i asking Qs realy rips i personaly cant or couldnot see my self paying someone to make them MONEY back when i first started i made one line on that pratice skin i felt confident from that moment on all came in time that to learn was easy techniques are the tools what works and how to use your tools you must ask Qs im proud someone has gave u a strate up answer now im gona jump on my go ped ride down to the hop and get me some smokes come home and clean my tools cleaning is one of your best tools slang some ink


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by mjf from IP: 71.232.210.213 on 05/26/11
ptown,NH,USA

****Eyeball the adjustment NEVER touch change to your machine!!! *****

Dime nickle directions again?

I think that info comes with every E-Kit.

You've just given all the hacks out there who don't even read the directions that came in the mail with there machine good but INCOMEPLETE advice. ---DANGEROUS even.

Bobcat...come on really...here's what I see happening.

Some hack is going to have troubles with machine and stick his hand in his pocket for change.. place it on tube to adjust, and keep going. Are you actually trying to infect someone? Change is dirty.

****Eyeball the adjustment NEVER touch change to your machine!!! *****

To everyone actually learning to tattoo from the internet remember you don't know for sure who's giving the advice. Or who said it was good advice.

****Eyeball the adjustment NEVER touch change to your machine!!! *****


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by bobcat from IP: 24.178.115.33 on 05/26/11
USA

u realy got & eye for things MJF someone other than yourself gave someone good advice and that was the answer to the question


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by MJF from IP: 71.232.210.213 on 05/26/11
ptown,nh,usa

bobcat,srory fi im offneding either of you.i actulaly think i may be wrong critsizing you or the porsen you complimented.both were quite hard to comprehend for somereason.ascreeching chaulkboard on the writtenwerd.youmaybothsee something beetwen thelines thats good adviceto the masses.keep pumping those misdirected egos.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by bobcat from IP: 24.178.115.33 on 05/26/11
USA

well lets b friends mjf u just might answer my next Q's or i yours


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by peloncito73@yahoo.com from IP: 68.102.166.252 on 08/18/11

That was alot of NO help


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by kaoswolf from IP: 98.89.186.254 on 09/07/11
USA

Boy the flaming answers here really are hurtful. do any of you actually know where the art of tattooing came from? and its still done in some countrys with wooden tools and handmade ink. but you guys all say just because someone doesnt want to be someones slave and pay for common knowledge that there a scratcher. I know a few "scratchers" and some of there work is better than most of the proffessional people that have been working in a shop for years. and you think having a shop makes it better, well one just got SHUT DOWN by the health dpt here for unsanitary conditions. so if your not going to help people by giving them advice to make them safer dont open you buttholes and say anything.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by HomeMADE from IP: 71.185.74.158 on 10/21/11
Pjilly, pa.

Ya know what?? You Tattoo artists that are already established are just pissed off coz were learning on our own, JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL ARRISTs did!
Who do you guys think came up w/the ways WE tattoo today?? NO ONE SHOWED THEM WHAT TO DO. THEY LEARNED ON THEIR OWN. trial and error!
Just like the tattoo school you guys said was ALLLL WRONG! Lmao. Yeaaa ok.. Just pissed off becoz their not giving tou $5,000 for some BOGUS ASS apprenticship. HAAAHHHH.
PEACE.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by HomeMADE from IP: 71.185.74.158 on 10/21/11
Pjilly, pa.

Ya know what?? You Tattoo artists that are already established are just pissed off coz were learning on our own, JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL ARRISTs did!
Who do you guys think came up w/the ways WE tattoo today?? NO ONE SHOWED THEM WHAT TO DO. THEY LEARNED ON THEIR OWN. trial and error!
Just like the tattoo school you guys said was ALLLL WRONG! Lmao. Yeaaa ok.. Just pissed off becoz their not giving tou $5,000 for some BOGUS ASS apprenticship. HAAAHHHH.
PEACE.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by HomeMADE from IP: 71.185.74.158 on 10/21/11
Pjilly, pa.

Ya know what?? You Tattoo artists that are already established are just pissed off coz were learning on our own, JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL ARRISTs did!
Who do you guys think came up w/the ways WE tattoo today?? NO ONE SHOWED THEM WHAT TO DO. THEY LEARNED ON THEIR OWN. trial and error!
Just like the tattoo school you guys said was ALLLL WRONG! Lmao. Yeaaa ok.. Just pissed off becoz their not giving tou $5,000 for some BOGUS ASS apprenticship. HAAAHHHH.
PEACE.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by alexander_menchaca@yahoo.com from IP: 98.213.56.185 on 11/15/11
illinois

just wanted to let everyone know i started my apprentice years ago and have many customers with extremely happy expressions on their faces because of the work i have performed on their bodies. i never started on anyone or anything beside myself. i learned and i eventually become a great tattoo artist. i never thought about tattooing or even had a few months of "pondering" before i began. i just simply started. along with many other skills and talents that i somehow am astounding at. some people are simply that good and that talented in life to try things and perfect them, then move on to the next. weather it be basketball, drawing, singing, football, poetry, painting, writing, or tattooing. so all the people bashing on here have a lot more to learn about talent before u tell someone "you cant" do something. some people are born with gifts. some are born with many. some with one. so simply wish the best.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by inkslinger from IP: 198.228.223.56 on 01/27/12

Just being able to draw well means nothing at all to being a tattoo artist. I 've seen guys who can't draw to save their lives do amazing, albeit flash, tattoos. Perfect lines, delicate shading, at a level I can only hope to achieve, and am still far from after 2 years professional experience. Just because you can draw doesn't mean you can definitely master this, tattooing is an art in itself, and this s**t is hard. You need someone to show you how to use those machines with a serious apprenticeship because you can seriously f**k people up. We are not being elitist, we love seeing tattoos when they are well executed, and hate seeing someone getting scarred for life. We will respect you only if you respect this. Keep up with your portfolio, a master (the only people who can give you an apprenticeship, 15 years experience=master) will be able to see from your quality of pencil line and dedication to shading and the final image whether you would be good at this.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by cborchardt82 from IP: 68.61.62.180 on 02/20/12

Look, all I have to say is people need to stop with the smart ass remarks. Yes, some of these people don't give a shit what you say and are going to go out and tattoo people with or without the knowledge. Sometimes finding a decent person to apprentice under is difficult, the first attempt I made he recommended to go practice on people then come back. Bad advice. The guy I eventually apprenticed under wasn't a prick to people when they came in, he answered their questions when they asked or mentioned they wanted to learn. He did recommended they apprentice, but he wasn't an asshole about it. Id rather have more knowledgable future tattoo artists than people saying screw it no one will teach me, I'll teach myself. Yes they shouldn't tattoo without experience but its hard when no one will share it. On with the insults!


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by anjelina from IP: 173.176.59.44 on 03/22/12
montreal

they got inmates doing better art work wit rigged up machines and it looks wayyyy better then any of these clowns who charge out the ass for some bullshit do ur thing man the only way u gon learn is by trying


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by skattum1@yahoo.com from IP: 66.87.90.172 on 05/01/12
beloit, wi, usa

I feel bad for those looking for info, and get reamed by others. All of them have to start somewhere, and OBVIOUSLY they have learned from their mistakes. Those using melons, Atleast have smarter to not attempt on humans. Not everyone who has made it big or mediocre have gotten an apprenticeship. Give ppl a break, sheesh!. A lot of ppl started out backyard tatting, and are doing well. If someone KNOWS the artist has not done tats b4 and willing to be the test subject, who cares! It's their decision, at their discretion.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by RootsOFIron from IP: 76.89.250.39 on 08/08/12

you people are mean as all hell... to be honest the best way to learn is practice.... these people are haters who dont realise that tattoos were born out of ash and pointy bones... the japanese would disgrace every professional in the industry for using electric machines, over the stick tapping method... prisoners use a sewing needle and ball point ink... ive done no apprenticeship and i practice on myself... they can hate all they want tattooing is about expression... oh and BTW most of the pros you will come accrossed use stencils... its very rare to find an artist who will free hand on anyone... and they are fools if they do..... i get all my tattoos for material cost and i love each and everyone of them...im sure friends would appreciate a tattoo hook up i know mine beg me to do theirs, so in a nutshell it depends on the person but i know people who would rather have a "scratchy" tattoo from a close personal friend over paying $200 to a shop when they are just as likely to butcher you... my worst tattoo is the only tattoo i got done in a shop.... but they make a good point drawing a lot will help you. but at the same time familiarizing yourself with your equipment is more important...I PERSONALLY commend you for practicing on fruit and other things, to me that shows someone who wants to learn but is also concerned for any potential clientel... if you want to know more dont be afraid to go down to your local shop and talk to the guys in there. you would be surpised how many "pros" got started in jail with a needle, or in their garage helping friends... just take a word of advice if you want to practice on willing friends buy all disposible needle,tip,tube combos to ensure sterility, always wear gloves, and follow a very strict sterility routine, always repeat the same routine. Dont let these people scare you talkin about ruinin yourself and just keep determined, email me anytime if you have questions


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by RootsOFIron from IP: 76.89.250.39 on 08/08/12
LA, Cali, USA

but long story short.... liners run fast and smooth with slightly less stroke.... shaders run slower but firmer with a little more push... the number of wraps in the coils, number of coils, and all over machine design will effect its operation but with coil machine, i suggest digital power supply for fine tuning ur volts, u can for the most part change the feel of you gun just by tuning the voltage. if that doesnt get you the feel you want then try changing out springs and tuning... or if you dont want to deal with that hassle i would recommend buying a rotary style machine... it eliminates the need for tuning all together rotary also has constant stroke depth and you tune with the volts to control speed... people may down talk them but i personally find rotary to be much more friendly quiet and smooth (almost no vibration felt in hand) it will run all day without heat. i would advise against buying the cheap chinese machines(unless you rebuild the internals) they are good for frame replacements tho. and if you insist on buying chinese at least buy E, or S class machines youll be glad you did


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by NeverGiveUp from IP: 24.118.49.91 on 10/30/12

It Amazes me how often i hear professionals telling people not to try or Give Up and that's Bullshit if they did what there telling you to do they wouldn't be doing what they do so again BULLSHIT.....STOP ASKING COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS TO PROFESSIONALS Because THERE GETTING SCARED AWAY ! RESEARCH STUDY AND PRACTICE FIRST.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Katiekay from IP: 66.87.144.7 on 05/22/14

Wow what is the point of these forums if everybody is just rude?!. I get it, y'all think everyone should go threw and apprenticeship cool. I think so also, but what's so wrong with them wanting to atleast play around with a machine?!. Yes please refrain from tattooing any person, but there's fruits and practice skins. Maybe they will decide they don't want to pursue it as a career.. Or they will think hey I got this... And then they can get an apprenticeship, plus most states require it now anyways to become a tattooist,. So help them out so they can decide if it's something they actually want to end up doing.


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RE:Liners and Shaders

Posted by Stephen from IP: 172.13.114.248 on 08/24/14

Shut the fuck up about apprenticeships and answer his question like aliens came to earth and taught humans how to tattoo or something lol


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